Interview with James Mawdsley

Can you tell me which laws you are talking about?

I came in with a one-day pass with a visa. My passport was stamped, so I went in legally. The counsellor staff confirmed that. They saw my passport and said that I was here legally. But they gave me five years on an immigration charge for which there is no provision at all for a prison sentence. The maximum recommendation is deportation. They said I had broken the conditions of immigration. The maximum they could give me was deportation, but in fact they gave me five years. And even that law shouldn't have applied at all because I distributed my letters and was prosecuted under the Printing and Publishing Act. Then they added the immigration charge by saying that I had broken the law and that is illegal. So they charged me twice on the same issue. That in itself is wrong. And as for the seven years for the Printing and Publishing Act, I was at no stage allowed to refer to the content of what I had distributed, and there is provision for distributing religious or social material. I don't care because what I wrote was, "this regime is corrupt and we need to re-open universities, release political prisoners, and the SPDC should have dialogue with the NLD." I said that straight and I don't consider that to be anti-government. I consider that to be pro-truth. It needs to be done. And apart from anything else, the SPDC is not the government; the NLD is government.

During the last year that you were in prison you tried to fight legally the charges that they had imposed on you?

When I got there, I was saying for four months that I am not even going to bother with the appeal because I have no faith in the judicial system because it is so corrupt. That was proven by them not even admitting the appeal. They dismissed it even though U Kyi Min, my lawyer, proved that they had broken their own law. They are absolutely obliged to hear that appeal. The whole legal approach was basically just to highlight the corruption, and I knew that I would get out through international pressure and nothing to do with the legal system. Part of the pressure was showing how corrupt the legal system was.

Recently we heard that you have been badly beaten by the prison guards. Can you tell us a bit about that?

One thing I understand about Burma is that everyone is afraid with very good reason. When I was in Insein prison I understood perfectly the fear. I was devestated by fear in Insein prison. Fortunately after two months I got my feet back and was no longer afraid. But I understand that when someone is given the order to give someone a beating, it is not easy to outright argue with that. So, the guards and prisoners who carried it through, some of them were reluctant, some of them weren't and went ahead with great enthusiasm. It was severe beating, but I know that the Burmese people that I have met have had far worse treatment that has gone on for weeks and weeks with torture and real abuse. I am aware that the conditions that I was kept in was much better than so many prisoners in Burma, so I have no right to complain. In my heart I had to recognise how lucky I was. Even with the beating I recognised that for a Burmese it would have been so much worse.

Why did they do that?

I spent a whole year in prison protesting; I didn't stop. They were finding it impossible to contain me because they don't know how to sit down and listen to someone. The regime as you know and everybody in Burma knows, will not listen to anyone. The solution is always to come back with violence. And by coming back with violence they can, for the meantime, think they are in control in the country. But they are not; they are just building up a problem that is going to explode. With me, they avoided the violence as long as they could because they were scared of the international response. But at the end of the day they didn't know what to do. They thought they could shut me up like that. But even after three days, I was still saying that I was going to continue. Then they said, " we're sorry; we're not going to do it again. What is your point? What do you want to say? We will take it to the higher authorities." They were probably lying.They made a mistake by drawing so much attention to themselves on their brutality

We also heard that last December  you had a hunger strike demanding the release of Min Ko Naing. Can you tell us a bit about this?

The first time was the 7 day hunger strike and in March and April there was a 20 day hunger stike. One day for each day of Min Ko Naing's 20 year sentence. Basically throughout my involvement with Burma, I have been so inspired by the courage of those I met, and those I haven't met, but only read and heard about. I just know that I am not suffering out there and that there are people in far worse conditions. I believe Min Ko Naing keeps strong in prison. I have heard of his resistance. I don't want the outside world to say, "look here is a white man who spent one year in prison." Min Ko Naing has done more than 11 years in solitary, and there were 6 men in Keng Tung prison who were there for life. That means until they die, not 25 years. I want to bring the attention of the West to this; to shake them up and say, "what are you doing in England or America that is as important as the injustice happening in Burma?" Min Ko Naing is a huge inspiration to me.

Can you tell me briefly about your daily life in prison?

To try to keep a routine. To do a lot of exercise in the morning. I was lucky enough, due to British and Australian Counsellor staff, to have a bible in my cell. Later I was able to get quite a few books. To be able to read and to pray. I got a book from the authorities on the Mingla Suit; the 38 points of the Mingla Suit. It is brilliant; it is truth. It sounds foolish to say, but if only people respect the truth of Buddhism because the regime chokes out so much propaganda. They want to give the impression they are Buddhist, but they are not; they are evil. Buddhism is so true. I am a Christian, but I see them both as paths to the truth. So, in my cell I would basically pray, exercise, and read.

Were you able to meet other prisoners?

Not really, but there were of course a lot of people guarding me because the regime are so paranoid and stupid. They could have had one guard outside my cell, but there were up to 12 at a time, and I am sure the guards were there to watch each other rather than watch me. Some of them helped me just by a smile. It was good to get to know some of these prisoners and guards over the year, and they kept me alive. You, the DVB, are broadcasting to Keng Tung prison. Please give the message to the prisoners and guards, who might not even know they were helping me, that just a kind word or a kind smile meant the world to me. Burma means the world to me, and I don't want to be a stupid white guy charging in and who doesn't understand the problems. When Burmese people treat me with kindness......

We will definately convey the message. Why are you risking your life for Burma?

I believe that I will live. I believe I can do more alive than dead, and I am very very careful. I know what the outside people think, "he is crazy; he is taking big risks," but I am extremely careful about what I do. On my journey from Thailand to Moulmein I had the best help in the world from the KNU and other people who helped get me to Moulmein. I could trust them absolutely. There is no way they would allow harm to come to me. They are the funniest soldiers I ever met; they are brilliant, and I could trust them and the members of the ABSDF, who have helped me in tight spots and the KNPP. So I don't really fear for my life, but the reason I am committed to Burma is two reasons. One is the inspiration of Daw Aung San Suu Kyi who I think the whole world should value for what she is teaching us and showing us. The other is individuals that I have met first of all on the Burma-Thai border, but also elsewhere in Burma. They are dedicating their lives. I have seen the injuries they have from bullets. I have seen the dead bodies and the dying bodies. These people that the world is not hearing about, who with such amazing courage and dedication, obvious to their own country, are far more important to me, or far more of an inspiration to me, than when I look around London or England. In this country we are missing the point. The freedom and truth is everything, and it is worth all of your dedication. From what I have learnt in Burma, I would even now like to help my own country to focus on the essentials of life, which is to fight for your dignity and truth. The Burmese have taught me and helped me far more than I have done for Burma.

Yesterday during the press conference you charged the regime for committing genocide. Can you tell a little more about it?

Saying genocide is not an exaggeration; it is not just throwing around a word. What is happening in Burma is genocide. There is a legal definition, and there are five criteria. Any one of these criteria prove genocide. What is happening in Burma satisfies three of these criteria. I would prefer if you talk to someone like Lord Alton of the Jubilee Campaign who understands far more than I about international law. But they have shown me proof that I cannot repeat now; legal arguments. What is happening is genocide, and of course the Western governments are reluctant to admit that, because then they must act or else they have no moral authority in our country. We will say to them, "what is the point of admitting this is genocide if you will not take international strong action?" We must push our government to admit the truth, and to look at the facts that this is genocide. Our country is changing too, and we need to shape them up. Let's tell the British people to obey the facts and take consequences for those facts, which means we have a duty to use force on the SPDC because they are breaking international law, and for me, more importantly, they are breaking every moral law and God's law. What they are doing is wicked, and the way to stop that is through legal means; possibly through the UN. Preferably, the SPDC will disappear and the NLD and CRPP are established as governments in Burma

Upon your release, did you have to sign any paper that you are not going back to Burma?

Not at all. They wanted me to sign something, but there was no way that I would sign anything for the whole 416 days I was there. I refused to sign anything even just the list of inventory. I said, " Look you are not the government. " On my first day of arrest during the interrogation, I said, " You do not represent the government. You are illegal, anti-constitutional, terrorist thugs. You are wicked, and I am not going to sign anything. I am not even going to answer your questions. The NLD is government, and I will answer questions from a representative of them or a judge or a policeman appointed by them in the court." When they asked me if I was guilty or not, I said " you are not a judge and this is not a court, and I will not recognise the SPDC's authority because they are anti-constitutional. I will recognise the NLD. " I said that in court clearly three times. On the court record they wrote down that I pleaded guilty and understood the charges. They lied so much, they broke their own law. They said I pleaded guilty to three charges. They only levelled two charges in the court room and then added on my previous sentence later. I would sign nothing, and I would never bow the knee to that regime. After two months in Insein prison I basically got a big help from God. I will never bow the knee to the junta, I will never recognise them because they are not the government. They are an army; they have no legal, moral or constitutional authority. A representative of the junta said to me at Rangoon airport, when I was handed over to my Ambassadors, " will you sign this paper?" I said "no, " and he said, "are you willing to go back to Keng Tung?" I said, " yes, I will do another year. Send me on the next plane back to prison. I am not signing your paper." The Ambassadors did great work to make sure they could not argue with that.

So they were trying up to the last minute to make you sign something?

I think eventually the Ambassadors signed it saying that Mawdsley has read this document. They wanted us to say that I had understood it, but I don't understand their lies. They could have sent me back to prison, and I wouldn't care. I wasn't going to sign.

After being in prison for more than 400 days, did you hear any news about yourself being in prison or about the people demonstrating outside?

Obviously I don't want to make life difficult for anyone there now, but I did get messages from DVB and BBC, and it gave me great encouragment. I love Burma. A lot of people in Europe don't understant why I did it. I think most people in Burma understand perfectly, because we all know how unjust and oppressive the regime is, and there has to be protest against it. When a Burmese person protests, and they do, they are in for a terrible time. But when a Westerner protests, we have so much protection, and live in much better conditions for the very short time we are in prison compared to what the Burmese go through. So, when I get messages about what the DVB and the BBC are reporting, that makes me very happy.

Are you going back to Burma again?

I will never drop this cause before Burma has democracy, and I don't see how I can stay away from Burma once it has democracy. Then I will be over very soon. I don't know what will happen if I go back to Burma or not. I don't think there is any need for me to go back to prison; I don't think that will be helpful. The main reason I went was that I wanted to understand why and how the junta is doing what it is doing. How can such an evil organisation exist? It comes about from untruth; people who say there is no fighting in Burma. I have walked through the Karen and Karenni states and I have seen bullets going over my head, grenades exploding, people shot and killed. I know there is fighting and hundreds of thousands of displaced people and refugees, and yet the regime is saying there is no fighting. If everyone rejected their lies solely for the truth they couldn't exist, because people at lower ranks are willing to accept their lies and repeat them. But the reason they do that is because of fear. Even people in the West do the same because in my country we are afraid to lose our material advantage; afraid to lose our wealth; afraid to lose our safety. Therefore, we make the lie that the Burmese people have made their problem and it is their job to sort it out. That is a lie. The whole world has made that problem because the whole world supplies the junta with fighter planes, automatic weapons, and with internet technology for communication and satellite phones. So, the junta has this massive technological advantage over the people, so they can crack down with real brutality. The world has a duty to sort out this problem, and yet we in my country tell the lie that it is not our problem because we are afraid, not of violence, but of losing our comfort. So, it requires every single person in every country to try their best to stick to the truth and to give as much as they can. Although we face different penalties for our stands, I don't want to die, so I am not going to fight till the death without being sensible about what is the best approach. If you die you die, but be sensible about what you can do. There were people in the prison, the ABSDF, KNPP and KNU members, that are standing up for truth, and they are saying the truth. That is what you do at the DVB - giving the truth back into Burma in your own way. It is so important to be as truthful as you can in the reports. This is what will change the whole situation in Burma - the VOA, DVB, RFA, and the BBC. If they can broadcast the truth of the situation it will bring massive change. Most of all police officers, prison officers and soldiers need to start living truthfully and should be saying, "my orders are illegal, immoral and unjust, and I will not carry them out even if it means no more promotion for me; even if it means I will lose my job; even if it means I will go to prison, I am not going to obey these orders. I want to obey the Lord Buddha, because if we obey him things will be fine." But you can only do that as an individual. I can't complain that the world has problems, I can only deal with the problems that I have inside me. One year in solitary confinement is a good way for me to try to make myself a little bit more humble and a bit less greedy.

Do you have any plans of suing the Burmese government?

Really I can't speak about the future. The pressure for change in Burma must be relentless and increasing, and I will be part of that.